Student Loans the Whole Story

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Would you support Student Loans

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Total Votes : 12

Student loans delay attempt fails.

Post by Digger on Wed 28 May 2008, 7:05 pm

An attempt to delay the introduction of student loans in Guernsey has been defeated in the States.
Deputy John Gollop wanted legislation to delay the loan system, but he failed to win enough support from his fellow deputies.
Education Minister Carol Steere, said there may be other opportunities to debate the issue.

Her department is proposing loans of up to £3,000 are paid back over a maximum of 12 years.



Are you for or against Student loans ?


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Loans opponents to meet to consider their options

Post by GD on Thu 05 Jun 2008, 11:45 am

STUDENT loan opponents meet today to finalise a move to take the issue back to the House.
Around 20 of the 47 States members could attend as they decide the wording of a requete and who will lead it.
Education has not yet decided whether to wait for the motion or release a report itself. So far, 19 members have agreed to sign the petition for a rethink and another six have expressed an interest, according to Education member Matt Fallaize (pictured), who is one of the chief opponents of loans.
Deputy Fallaize said the issue would not split the department and defended it being taken back. ‘There’s been an election between the policy being adopted and now,’ he said.


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Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by GD on Thu 05 Jun 2008, 11:50 am

What is your view on student loans?

Should we have them or should the parents foot the bill?

Or should the Grant's system come back

Post your comments here....

Plus vote


Last edited by GD on Sat 06 Sep 2008, 7:46 pm; edited 2 times in total


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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by AndyMcG on Thu 05 Jun 2008, 2:43 pm

I completely disagree with the current loans proposal.

A fair system would be to have the students foot the bill but without a parental contribution, this way if the parents want to help their son/daughter they can. However doing it this way would cost the States more money than the current system as they would have to scrap the parental contribution (around £6,000 per year) infavour of a loan (proposed at £3,000). It would cost the States £3,000 extra per year per student to support a completely fair system where the student pays for their own education.

Introducing student loans on top of a parental contribution (as currently proposed) is completely unfair. This means it will be costing a Guernsey family up to £9,000 per year to send one student to univeristy. And this doesn't include living costs of around £4,000 per year. Compare this to the cost of sending a UK student to university, which is £3,000 per year (as a loan).

I feel the best thing to do at the moment is to leave the current system in place and for the Guernsey States to negotiate University fees with the UK government. Why is this not being done?

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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by Barney Gumble on Thu 05 Jun 2008, 6:37 pm

Student loans are bollocks. Totally against them!

Discuss!!


Last edited by Barney Gumble on Fri 06 Jun 2008, 6:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by mafiamomma on Fri 06 Jun 2008, 7:29 am

I can appreciate the position the Education is in ,however, we need to stop driving our young people away like this.
Is it realistic to expect a young person to come back from Uni, be paying off a student loan, paying an inflated rent AND save up to buy their own place? It should not be assumed that they would automatically be living with their parents again.

I don't agree with Andy though that it would be fair for students to pay everything and then their parents can help if they want to.
What about those whose parents cannot afford it?
This will make it even harder for those on low incomes to achieve a University education.

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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by Pegasus on Fri 06 Jun 2008, 11:57 am

Loans are good idea, why give the money away to Students, which most of them will never come back to the Island...
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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by Sandra Sarkozy on Fri 06 Jun 2008, 4:50 pm

Firstly, the population decision is undoubtedly going to come back to the States deliberation to be overturned to bring 200 high earners and their families. Who are going to have to find accommodation and obtain licences.
One has to look at the bigger picture here. Many students do return to Guernsey, infact many banks look for local graduates, if they are not available then your going to have to increase the population.
Is that what you want, similiar to Jersey, many banks and businesses in Jersey have set their standards so high that they only take on graduates which means the local crapaud is finding that the job he wants is taken by an outsider with more experience.

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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by AndyMcG on Fri 06 Jun 2008, 11:33 pm

Pegasus wrote:Loans are good idea, why give the money away to Students, which most of them will never come back to the Island...

It is not giving the money away, it is an investment in the people of Guernsey. Graduates are required in many areas of employment; teaching, healthcare, etc and as Sandra mentioned many buisinesses are only looking for graduates. We must provide Guernsey students with the best oppertunities in order to have workforce which is inducive for buisness and doesn't require shipping in people with these qualifications, putting more pressure on local resources and further elevating housing prices.

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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by GD on Sat 07 Jun 2008, 4:02 pm

If there was no Student loans, I wonder what the effect would be?

Just how many less Students would go away?


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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by MarkyD on Sun 08 Jun 2008, 9:12 am

I must admit that I didn't know too much about this topic until I looked at an article about it on the .gov website and even this was out of date! From what I gather we are all considering proposals to fund student Uni fees in 3 ways:

A States grant system that will be available to the lower income families

A parental contribution

A student contribution to make up the shortfall (if any)

My apologies if this is different to current proposals.

I must state that I have no axe to grind with this topic at all, have long since left the education system and never went to University (and god does it show!)

I imagine that all such hot potatoes within the states have to follow certain guidelines (not all based on internal policy) in order to release funding for such projects. We all know and see things every day that an obscene amount of money has been spent on in the shadow of and perhaps contributing to the black hole.

States Department these days do not only have to justify and show necessity for capital investment to Treasury & Resources and States members, but also to the public. On the one hand they have to try and support students in their further education (and lets face it they haven't exactly turned their backs on students because they are still proposing grants and unbeatable rate loans), but they also have to be seen to be contributing to the filling in of the black hole by offering good value for money in the meantime and not simply throwing money away (in the form of a grant) to those students who decide not to return to the island.

If we examine that last line then perhaps we may realise that actually there are quite a lot of students who never return and lets face it with house prices and cost of living as it is it's not surprising!

If the finance industry locally really does have a shortfall of local graduates, then perhaps they should be looked at as a partial solution? Graduates returning to Guernsey and undertaking employment should be offered packages by these employers that effectively pays off their outstanding student debts in exchange for a fixed term employment. You see this quite often in the private sector anyway - work pays for your course / training that costs several thousand, if you stay for a set period it remains free, but if you leave you pay the money back.

Once again apologies if this is based on information that is no longer correct, but it's not the first time i've had an attack of verbal diahhorea and probably won't be the last!
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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by Paul Domaille on Sun 08 Jun 2008, 8:29 pm

I have to declare a vested interest here having one daughter currently away at Uni and another hopefully going in 3 years time. I have been totally against this idea from the outset. My main opposition is the fact that a number of graduates will be forced to start working life in debt, this is not a "Guernsey" way of doing things ! Modern society has made borrowing a way of life for a lot of people, the crunch is now coming with tightening of lending criteria and it may get worse. I don't think we have seen the end of the US sub prime fallout yet.
As Matt has said, the States have apparently tried to negotiate hard with the UK over fees, yes we are small fry, but I think we should be pushing harder.
My elder daughter was promised a £400 bursary on succesful completion of her first 2 terms (2 or 3 anyway), she was paid £100 shoirtly after starting her course (first year just completed) on the understanding that it would have to be repaid should she not make the grade, it was paid in vouchers to spend at WH Smith and the suchlike. She went to chase up the balance some time after it was due and was told that she was not eleigible coming from the CI...if she had been Greek or Portuguese or German it would have been no problem !
Secondly, the cost of administrating this proposed scheme is exorbitant, how many fees could have been paid with the outsourced costs ?
During my campaign research I met several leaders in the education field ( I won't name names as this was purely for increasing my knowledge and not to gain quotes). Feedback I got was that the UK suffered a decline in Uni applications folowing the introduction of student loans, this was partly ameliorated in subsequent years. Also there are moves afoot in the UK to overturn the Student Loans scheme although I think that may be a little like bashing ones head against a brick wall under the current Govt.
I would be happy to see a review of current funding. From memory a full grant is paid on family income of below c£38,000 and staged down up to c£70,000 when no subsidy is paid. I believe the "separated" parent issue has been addresed although it hasn't been implemented as yet.
Looking at the demographic issue we should be doing all we can to encourage our young to go away and study AND RETURN.
I wish you luck with your requete Matt, at the very least I hope the States can enforce Education to put any proposed student loans schemes before the whole house.
All the best,
Paul Domaille

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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by AndyMcG on Sun 08 Jun 2008, 9:17 pm

It is difficult to find an adequate way of encouraging students to return. If you offer reduced interest on loans to students who
immediately return to the island this will not stop them leaving once their loan is paid off (and this would not refund the total spent as a fraction would still be a grant).

Also there are a number of students who must work in the UK for several years after completing their courses in order to gain further qualifications before they return. I am one of these students as I am studying medicine. There are no facilities in the island for training junior doctors, so I must remain in the UK for at the very least a further 5 years before returning. During this time I would be paying my loan at a higher rate than student who could return.

Also is it right to say that students must return? What if a Guernsey student wishes to pursue a career that they cannot do in Guernsey? Personally I am very interested in cancer research, and may choose not to return to the island in order to help develop better treatments for the disease. Should I be penalised if I make this choice? Would it not be beneficial to the people of Guernsey to allow me to do this?

Just a thought :)

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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by Pegasus on Mon 09 Jun 2008, 11:12 am

Paul Domaille wrote:I would be happy to see a review of current funding. From memory a full grant is paid on family income of below c£38,000 and staged down up to c£70,000 when no subsidy is paid. IPaul Domaille

Seems a better way to me, if the parents have got the money why should they be "subsidised" with a cheap loan scheme
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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by GD on Tue 10 Jun 2008, 7:34 pm


Seen

Students use Facebook to promote loans campaign




Campaigners against the introduction of student loans in Guernsey are using the internet to boost their support. A group of students who disagree with current plans to make them contribute directly towards the cost of their higher education have started a campaign hub on the social networking site Facebook. Andrew McGovern, who's one of the organisers, told Channel Online they are not necessarily opposed to any form of student contribution, but feel that the scheme proposed by Education would discourage young people from pursuing higher education, and therefore ultimately damage the island.

Under Education's proposals - which are due to be introduced in September 2009 - each student would be expected to pay three thousand pounds per year towards the cost of their course. Students will be offered the chance to borrow all or part of that money from the States, repayable after graduation. This charge will be in addition to the means-tested contribution made by their parents and their living expenses (if they don't qualify for a grant). The decision to bring in student loans was taken to combat the increasing cost of sending islanders to university. If the States decide to cover the extra cost using taxpayers' money, it will mean finding another £2.5 million each year.

The students' campaign against loans has been reignited by by a deputies' revolt against the plan, led by Education member Deputy Matt Fallaize. He and his supporters are planning to bring a requete to the States in the autumn to overturn the scheme. (from CIonline)

Great to see the media paying attention...


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Student loans campaign gears up for summer

Post by GD on Tue 17 Jun 2008, 10:04 pm

After the backbreaking slog of exams, most students want to spend the summer relaxing. But some young people will instead be fighting to get the student loans scheme overturned. They're not necessarily all opposed to the principle of a direct student contribution to the cost of study, but they feel the scheme as it stands is wrong. Andy McGovern told Channel Online their concerns:

"Well there's nothing wrong with students funding their own education but the thing that is wrong is the Guernsey States passing on costs which are more than three times what they are in the UK to families. So that includes students but also parents. The parental grants are up to six thousand pounds at the moment and now they're trying to pass on another three thousand pounds of university fees."

With now more than seven hundred members, the campaign group on the social networking site, Facebook, is growing in stature. It's the virtual headquarters of the group opposed to student loans. They use this site to discuss ideas, and to canvass support. Now inevitably because most of the members of Facebook are young therefore most of the members of this group are students. But their parents are often concerned as well and Rob Gill told Channel Online say that student loans simply mean passing on more expense to them.

"If this goes through [my son] will be due the three thousand on his final year and as I've paid for his sister it would be unfair to make him get a loan."

With talk of petitions and other visible demonstrations of their views the idea that students are apolitical nowadays may be about to be discredited (from CIonline)


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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by AndyMcG on Tue 17 Jun 2008, 11:22 pm

"The parental grants are up to six thousand pounds at the moment and now they're trying to pass on another three thousand pounds of university fees."

Should read:

"The parental contibution is up to six thousand pounds at the moment and now they're trying to pass on another three thousand pounds of university fees."
- my mistake!

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Loans debate to return in September

Post by GD on Tue 24 Jun 2008, 3:05 pm

Student loans are going to be up for debate, once again, in the States of
Guernsey this September.

Deputy Matt Fallaize handed in a requete yesterday, signed by 23 deputies-
almost half the house.

He wants to see the loans scheme agreed upon by the old house thrown out and
the continuation of the system of grants and parental contributions that we
currently have.

Deputy Fallaize says the requete has massive support.


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Deficit 'stopping loan changes'

Post by GD on Sun 29 Jun 2008, 8:34 pm

Guernsey's operating deficit is leaving no room to stop the introduction of student loans, according to the island's treasury minister.

The States voted to introduce a loan system after significant additional funds for education were ruled out by the island's treasury.

The move has been criticised by students and some education bosses.

But Treasury Minister Charles Parkinson said paying for increased grants would have to come out of island reserves.

'Drawing deeper'

The loans would see students being offered sums of up to £3,000 to be paid back over a maximum of 12 years.

Education Department member Deputy Matt Fallaize said he wanted the introduction of loans delayed until 2011 and for the Education Department to then re-visit the issue.

But Minister Parkinson said the costs of scrapping the plans was not understood by some States members.

He said: "People are bringing it [the debate] back because they genuinely believe that the grants should be increased and a loans scheme shouldn't be introduced, and I understand and respect that point of view.

"But all deputies must understand that there's a cost for that, and if we do give additional grants and don't introduce a loans scheme, then, as things stand, we're likely to be drawing deeper on our reserves." (from BBConline)


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Who’ll lose millions to pay for student grants?

Post by GD on Mon 30 Jun 2008, 1:13 pm

EDUCATION minister Carol Steere is opposed to student loans, as long as finding the money to continue with grants does not impact on other essential services.
Deputy Matt Fallaize will take a requete to the States in September aimed at reversing the decision made by the previous administration to introduce the loans.
Deputy Steere was not among the 23 deputies to sign his petition – she wants to find out where the money would come from and whether any other services would be affected as a result before deciding her final stance.
‘Personally, I would not wish to put the burden of loans on students,’ she said. My stance has been that it comes down to affordability. The previous House made it clear the money was not available, that was the previous States’ decision. Whether the States will now make a different decision is a matter for them.’ (from BBCNews)


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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by GD on Sat 06 Sep 2008, 7:55 pm

Students in Guernsey are celebrating after it was announced plans for Student Loans are to be scrapped for at least 3 years.

The Education Department has made a u-turn on their proposals...and will now review the whole issue.

A deal's been made with Universities UK to keep tuition fees down for islanders.

Deputy Matt Fallaize is still bringing requete to the States as there is still official policy in place to introduce loans. Deputy Fallaize also wants to make sure sufficient budgets are given to the department in the future so loans will never have to be introduced.

He said "It gives students that cast iron commitment that there will not be any student loans until 2012 at the earliest. Although Education this year will not need to introduce student loans, unless the requete is debated and the States has an opportunity to decide whether to approve the requete decide exactly what its policy on Student contributions is there'll be a degree of uncertainty hanging over student's heads".(from CIonline)


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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by Pete Burtenshaw on Sun 07 Sep 2008, 6:18 pm

I agree with comments made that in order to stop an increase in the population from outsiders graduates should be encouraged to come back to the island of their birth. Not all students do return to Guernsey because of many factors, better employment prospects in the UK, better working conditions, affordable housing etc and being away from home for so long the student who is now a mature adult is happy and settled in their new environment. I have two nieces who were both promised employment back home in Guernsey after leaving Cambridge and oxford but they were let down very badly and the posts they were promised went to outsiders. One niece is a lawyer and the other a music teacher both of a high caliber both now living in the UK with jobs in their chosen fields. I know that their parents struggled to finance their placements in the UK but managed.



I do feel that to achieve many things in life borrowing and debt go hand in hand especially in this day and age and any loans system should be fair and balanced and not structured so that some students, parent/parents are struggling to survive. I would advocate the more affluent parents support their children and receive no assistance what so ever from the state.



There is a flip side one must not forget those youngsters locally who will not attend Uni or College in the UK, who are heavily in debt in order to achieve their goals locally with many having no other option but to get loans out at horrendous interest rates with those parents with property taking out a bond against their property or parents acting as guarantor. These local students have no such option of a student loan because the student loan is not available to those training locally. Do you hear them or their parents moaning about this.

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Re: Student Loans the Whole Story

Post by GD on Tue 23 Sep 2008, 3:04 pm

THE fight against student loans is continuing on the eve of the debate on their future.

An improved financial picture means their introduction is likely to be staved off when the States discusses the issue tomorrow, although a statement on the future of two primary schools, which is set to be given in the morning, might cloud the situation.

Debate should come down to whether members back Deputy Matt Fallaize’s requete meaning loans would not be introduced until 2012 at the earliest or a Policy Council amendment capping the higher education budget so the issue would come back if it was exceeded.

Student John Angliss (pictured), who has been at the forefront of those objecting to loans, is urging members to pass the requete unamended. ‘Two years ago, as I was about to take up my place at university, the States were debating and postponing the introduction of student loans,’ he said.

‘Student loans are being threatened again this year and once again those looking forward to taking up places at university are having to consider whether they can justify going into deep debt to pay for it. It will be a gamble if they do.’ Most of this debate has focussed upon narrow financial criteria. The case needs to be made that a university education is a good thing in itself, both to those who go through it and to the island as a whole.’
(from thisisguernsey)


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