£100 million needed for deep water berth

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£100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Thistle on Mon 19 Jan 2009, 1:48 pm

£100 million pounds needs to be spent on a new deepwater berth to secure future fuel imports according to captain peter gill the harbour master.this has been known about since 1993.
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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Digger on Mon 19 Jan 2009, 2:43 pm

That is some huge wish list the States have now .......Oops we have no money !!!:lala1:


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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Dave Jones on Sun 22 Feb 2009, 11:55 am

We have a deep water berth, its called St Peter Port harbour, I think this idea was resurrected because of the fuel ship issue and the idea we would not be able to find the right ships that could dry out in St Sampson harbour. To me the solution is simple; we run some fuel pipes across Bel Creve bay from the deep water berths at SPP to the fuel farms at St Sampson, a hell of a lot cheaper than a 100 million deep water berth in the North of the island


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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Digger on Sun 22 Feb 2009, 12:14 pm

You been thinking again Dave (i told you about that) :) .The problem i have with that is SPP Harbor is getting over crowed as it is , the passenger boats (inter-island) have to wait to unload their passengers sometimes as much as 15 mins . This is not helped by putting a pontoon where the bon Marin used to dock so in essence there is only two points of embarkation/disembarkation .

The freight berth is always busy with the Isis etc. And with this hair-brained idea of building another posh marina would only add to the congestion ,with the trident then having to come into the main harbour.

Having said that i agree it would be a cheaper solution to the problem.


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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by ploughman on Sun 22 Feb 2009, 1:02 pm

HaHa, i like your idea ,Dep Jones, just a couple of logistical problems though, where would you like the tankships to unload in St Peter Port?, they need a berth with discharge arms, to get the fuel off,then how exactly are you going to lay 12/18" pipelines to get the fuel to St Sampsons, 2 lines needed, and then how exactly are you going to be able to pump the fuel from one parish to another? this ain't a sh*tpipe in bellegreve we are talking about! These tankships have their own pumps onboard to discharge fuel, but somehow i dont think they could pump that distance! that is why tank farms are always close by to the berths.

Nice idea, but i think it was not really thought about , but maybe you do not have knowledge on shipping or fuel transportation, no offence meant ,Dave.
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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by wayside on Sun 22 Feb 2009, 2:34 pm

Where does the figure of £100M come from, has someone actually worked out a position for this birth and a cost or is it another guess made just to guage a reaction?
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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Martini on Sun 22 Feb 2009, 4:57 pm

Hey, lets not kick the guy for trying to think laterally! I see what you mean about the pumps and arms etc, so it would appear Dave's idea is a non starter BUT in the North Sea, they do pick up oil from drilling rigs in deep water. What's to stop a similar arrangement here, in reverse?


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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by karma on Sun 22 Feb 2009, 6:14 pm

Hi there Martini - nice to meet you and I am so glad you are not going to let the bastards grind you down :-)))))))
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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Martini on Sun 22 Feb 2009, 6:47 pm

Thanks Karma! Many have tried in the past, and some even recently, but all have failed!


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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by karma on Sun 22 Feb 2009, 6:51 pm

Goodonya :-)
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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Dave Jones on Tue 24 Feb 2009, 12:31 pm

First of all I said the SPP had a deep water berth, of coarse you would need to allocate one of the berths for unloading fuel with the proper pumps etc in place. The pipe line would have its own pumping system and would not rely on the fuel ships pumps to pump it right across to St Sampson.

Whatever the logistics and the cost it would be significantly cheaper than £100 million.

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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Dave Jones on Tue 24 Feb 2009, 12:37 pm

Wayside


The 100 million figure came from calculating the original scheme that was suggested by the then Board of Administration for the area opposite the Vale castle several years ago, although that was before Longue Hougue was built, if anything it is probably a gross underestimate of the true cost of such a project.

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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by ploughman on Tue 24 Feb 2009, 5:21 pm

I think that the £100 million talked about was to include freight berths as well, so transfering the commercial/freight aspect of St Peter Port to the new deep water berths. But as stated, that figure is probably a bit off the mark now!!

You could probably use 1/2 of the 100 mill just on all the consultants which no doubt will be fighting to rip off the Guernsey states again, lets be honest, the last 2 developments at St Sampsons have not exactly been on budget or done properly, ( one marina, and one fire main). Consultants and experts ?? money well spent on these consulants ??? i think not!
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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Chok Dee Ja on Thu 26 Feb 2009, 9:07 am

wayside wrote:Where does the figure of £100M come from, has someone actually worked out a position for this birth and a cost or is it another guess made just to guage a reaction?


30 m + 30m + 30 m oh add another 10 million = 100million

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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Jigman on Thu 26 Feb 2009, 9:43 am

Correct me if I am wrong, but dont we need to spend a lot of money on the existing berths in town?
New cranes - Reinforcing the berths etc etc... how much is that going to cost?? and you want to put the fuel ships there as well??

Why cant we build a fixed pontoon off St Sampsons in deep water ... less of a run of pipes and would look a lot better than putting them across Belle Greve.
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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by plimmerton811 on Thu 26 Feb 2009, 7:04 pm

If we look at the safety aspect, what happens if a fuel boat goes bang.

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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by ploughman on Thu 26 Feb 2009, 7:41 pm

Then we have 9 1/2 parishes instaed of 10, coz 1/2 of SPP will be gone!
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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Dave Jones on Fri 27 Feb 2009, 3:35 pm

I donít mind what they do it was just an idea thatís all, we donít have to do anything for quite awhile as we have the fuel ships and they will use St Sampson harbour for the foreseeable future. The work being done on 4, 5 and 6th berths in town has already been budgeted for, as have the new cranes.

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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Dell on Sat 28 Feb 2009, 7:14 am

Will this be one project in St Peter Port harbour that will come in 'on budget' or will it be a vast 'overspend' ?


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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Bouzat on Sat 28 Feb 2009, 9:02 am

Added to the fortune already spent on tankers ( a decision rushed through) would not all this money be better spent on measures aimed at reducing our oil usage - e.g. wave energy generation, subsidies for electric vehicles, usage of nuclear energy from France, etc. etc.?

And what happened to the prioritisation debate?


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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Dave Jones on Sat 28 Feb 2009, 11:26 am

The decision on the fuel tankers was the right one, 17 million euros for two ships less than two years old was a bargain and we now have full control over our own fuel supplies. The decision had to be taken quickly for several reasons first of all the company that owned them went into liquidation overnight, I was called to a policy council meeting together with all other ministers at 8.30 the following day which was a Saturday morning, to be told that both these tankers were now subject to the control of company administrators and our next fuel delivery to the island was uncertain. We decided very quickly to put in a bid to buy them in order to stop them being sold elsewhere and possibly being taken out of European waters for good, considering they were two of only 7 ships capable of serving these islands with the others on contracts that would have prevented them from serving our needs, I think that decision was eminently sensible.

The Chief Minister and Treasury Minister were given leave to negotiate the best deal they could for the two vessels which they did. The whole thing was kept under wraps for very good reasons .the first being that we did not want the owners to know that it was a government who were trying to purchase them for fear of the price being hiked up, which is why they were bought through an agent, secondly we did not want to cause any panic buying at the pumps because people felt our fuel supplies were at risk, which for a very short time they were.

On the other points we are investing in wave generation technology and the trials in Ireland are going well by all accounts. On reducing our oil demands I think we are, the power station uses mostly French nuclear power (whatever you think of that) and people are I think where possible cutting down their dependency on oil. The prioritization debate will now take place after T&Rís billet to the states on possible funding mechanisms i.e. borrowing or not for essential projects. Which is much more sensible than having the prioritization debate saying what projects should take preference before we have discussed how we might fund them.

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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Dave Jones on Sat 28 Feb 2009, 11:28 am

PS The money was spent to secure supplies and for no other reason.

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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Bouzat on Sat 28 Feb 2009, 11:50 am

Thank you for the reply. Although the Eur17mn was spent to secure supplies, you say that the price was a bargain, which implies a good deal for an investment. How are the ships being treated in the States' accounts - as assets or just as a very large "running cost"? Even if they are assets, I suspect that there will be significant annual depreciation charges, again a large cost, unless the residual value ( probably scrap) is a factor.
I am glad to hear we are largely dependent on French nuclear power ( I think!) but if so why the big panic about spending so much on oil supplies? Presumably the only other usage is for heating, but you mention that people are cutting down on dependency on oil. That only leaves vehicle fuel - and we all know that usage of that should be reduced!


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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Spirit on Sat 28 Feb 2009, 12:10 pm

I would assume that these ships are now being chartered, both to our fuel importers and to other suitable users, therefore they should be earning a profit if used correctly.

The panic to buy these ships would have been that without them we would have had no transport (public or private) food in the shops, followed by no gas and even electricity failures. Who knows from there?

IMHO buying these ships was one of the few sensible decisions made by this States.


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Re: £100 million needed for deep water berth

Post by Bouzat on Sat 28 Feb 2009, 12:27 pm

I agree as a short term measure if it was that extreme, but it underlines that we should be looking at other energy sources so that we are not reliant on oil and having to spend multi millions on tankers, berths etc. And what if the oil starts running out or the price gets prohibitively high again?


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