Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

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Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Chok Dee Ja on Wed 26 Nov 2008, 3:27 am

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/11/14/guernsey-should-expect-no-special-favours/


Some extracts from the above

Guernsey seeks to run an administration which delivers OECD member state levels of service to its community without charging the appropriate taxes on that community to pay for that service. To ensure that it can do this it does three things. First it passes legislation to create financial services structures that have little or no use to the domestic community of Guernsey, and which are only designed to facilitate transactions that take place elsewhere, i.e. in other countries. Second, it creates a deliberate and legislatively backed veil of secrecy over the operation of those structures so that in many cases the country in which they have their economic impact cannot identify who the beneficial owner of that structure might be, and whether as a consequence it should be taxed in the place where it really undertakes its investments or trade. Third, it attracts to it shores a range of financial services professionals who are willing to facilitate these transactions, in no small part by turning a blind eye to the regulatory requirements of the places where they actually undertake their trades, whilst ensuring they are fully compliant (and this I acknowledge) with the requirements of regulation in Guernsey.

Most of all, we object to the deliberate distortions in trade that Guernsey and other tax havens deliberately create by providing an artificial factor of production, called secrecy, which can only be enjoyed by large companies, those with wealth, long established companies, multinational concerns, and those who are blatantly willing to break the law. This provides a deliberate competitive advantage to those who already enjoy great benefits in society and ensures that small companies, new companies, nationally-based companies, the poor in any society and those who are law-abiding will always suffer a greater burden of tax than is justified.



And as a consequence of all this you also made a major contribution to the current financial crisis in the world, by promoting private equity that has laden our markets with debt and damages the future employment generation prospects of many otherwise viable companies; by facilitating securitisation which has contributed to the sub-prime crisis; by creating opacity that has generated the uncertainty that means that banks will not lend to each other, and by assisting, through the creation of your make-believe world of offshore structures the degradation of the culture of sound corporate governance that once existed, but does no longer do so, at cost to us all.

Do not doubt, you have a lot to answer for. You will be held to account along with the other tax havens of the world. And you will not get favourable treatment. There is no reason why you should

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Post by Dave Jones on Sat 21 Feb 2009, 12:55 pm

Richard Murphy lives in a world of wishful thinking and envy, so consumed is he with jealousy that we have a very buoyant and reasonably stable economy while at the same time having moderately low taxes and charges. Murphy assumes that we are able to do this because we are somehow dishonest and our finance system is full of secrecy and corruption which it is not. We have clients that enjoy banking confidentiality, as is their right; we also have a very strong regulatory framework that ensures that the business we get and trade in is perfectly legitimate. We also have been scrutinised by the OECD the IMF who have given us a clean bill of health and as I said before we are much better regulated than some financial business in your own country, remember it was Guernsey FSC who informed the City of London about split funds. He is also wrong about any contribution Guernsey has made to the current world economic crisis, this was caused in the main by lack of regulation in the US and the UK and the crisis has been imported to us not the other way round, still Richard Murphy’s arguments are seldom based on facts

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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Chok Dee Ja on Mon 23 Feb 2009, 4:41 am

Dave Jones wrote:Richard Murphy lives in a world of wishful thinking and envy, so consumed is he with jealousy that we have a very buoyant and reasonably stable economy while at the same time having moderately low taxes and charges. Murphy assumes that we are able to do this because we are somehow dishonest and our finance system is full of secrecy and corruption which it is not. We have clients that enjoy banking confidentiality, as is their right; we also have a very strong regulatory framework that ensures that the business we get and trade in is perfectly legitimate. We also have been scrutinised by the OECD the IMF who have given us a clean bill of health and as I said before we are much better regulated than some financial business in your own country, remember it was Guernsey FSC who informed the City of London about split funds. He is also wrong about any contribution Guernsey has made to the current world economic crisis, this was caused in the main by lack of regulation in the US and the UK and the crisis has been imported to us not the other way round, still Richard Murphy’s arguments are seldom based on facts


I believe his comments made regarding Investec were fact? You mean the split warrrant funds which were openly sold in both Jersey and Guernsey and cost investors millions of pounds and which the gfsc did very little to assist ? You mean the same commision who handled the Equitable Life fiasco ,Well regulated enough to have no protection scheme in place as Landsbanki lose its clients millions of pounds ?May i also remind you of the uk tax amnesty 2007 were people came forward in their thousands admitting they had been using Guernsey and Jersey to avoid uk taxes i think the latest figures show 46000 and rising. Can you advise when Guernsey informed the city of london regarding split capital warrants ? Before or after the following Up to 50,000 investors are believed to have lost up to £770m from the controversial trusts ?

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2008/07/27/the-uk-tax-amnesty-here-we-go-again/

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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Fast Robert on Mon 23 Feb 2009, 9:27 am

Dave Jones.
Where are your facts?

Richard Murphy is an expert in tax matters. Why would he be jealous? It's his job for goodness sake. By investigating the processes he is uncovering a very large mess. What do you know about it that he doesn't?

This is a standard line of defence from someone with vested interests. No relation to the real world. I suggest you do some research on the instruments you protect.

So not only does Dave Jones defends ignorant racist comments and rich landowners that are distorting the housing market for everyone else, he defends the abuse of systems designed by bankers, for rich people to profit from, and for the vast global majority attempting democracy to have to contend with this pigs at the trough mentality of high finance.

Take a look around you Dave. Read the papers. Our finance industry (which has nothing to do with Guernsey, we are just a shell) is heavily implicated with the massive problems that the world is facing. How the hell can you be proud?

Research how fthe finance industry in this form despoils the democratic principle.

Jealousy? What nonsense.
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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by karma on Mon 23 Feb 2009, 11:12 am

I am not going to add to the above comments - except to add my voice to the statement:

Richard Murphy lives in a world of wishful thinking and envy, so consumed is he with jealousy that we have a very buoyant and reasonably stable economy while at the same time having moderately low taxes and charges.

Why on earth would a person who's doing his job be jealous of US?? that sounds like a bad case of megalomania!!!!

Your comments Dave please................
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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Chok Dee Ja on Tue 24 Feb 2009, 6:59 am

Dave can you tell us what your outlook is regarding the states of guernsey pension fund ?

1 Do you know its current value ?
2 What was the value 3 and 5 years ago ?
3 How much commision was paid to advisors in the last 5 years ?
4What are you expectations for the future regarding the fund value?

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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Dave Jones on Tue 24 Feb 2009, 12:20 pm

Karma


There are some rabid left wing individuals who do not believe that private citizens should have any flexibility whatsoever on where they bank their money or the freedom from government interference on where they decide to invest it, They should just pay it over to the tax collectors so that they can spend it at ever more alarming rates on things that do not enjoy wide public support (wars in the middle east for example) they also do not believe that people have a right to banking confidentiality (they call it secrecy) and that governments should have the right to know every minuscule detail of a persons personal financial affairs. I ask any of you if you would be happy for your bank to give up your personal details to any enquiring government that demanded it? People are jealous of our position in theses islands and do not like the fact that we have very sound economies while at the same time not charging our people the huge number of taxes seen in other jurisdictions, for instance, death duties, inheritance tax, dwelling profit taxes and the infamous council tax and many more you could probably find. It is envy pure and simple I have met UK politicians who have told me that they are very envious of our unique position.





Chok Dee Ja



I will try and get the answers to your questions in due coarse. I have the States meetings tomorrow and possibly Thursday.





Dave Jones


Last edited by Digger on Tue 24 Feb 2009, 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Changed Font size.)

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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Fast Robert on Tue 24 Feb 2009, 1:38 pm

Dave Jones wrote:Karma



There are some rabid left wing individuals who do not believe that private citizens should have any flexibility whatsoever on where they bank their money or the freedom from government interference on where they decide to invest it, They should just pay it over to the tax collectors so that they can spend it at ever more alarming rates on things that do not enjoy wide public support (wars in the middle east for example) they also do not believe that people have a right to banking confidentiality (they call it secrecy) and that governments should have the right to know every minuscule detail of a persons personal financial affairs. I ask any of you if you would be happy for your bank to give up your personal details to any enquiring government that demanded it? People are jealous of our position in theses islands and do not like the fact that we have very sound economies while at the same time not charging our people the huge number of taxes seen in other jurisdictions, for instance, death duties, inheritance tax, dwelling profit taxes and the infamous council tax and many more you could probably find. It is envy pure and simple I have met UK politicians who have told me that they are very envious of our unique position.









Chok Dee Ja



I will try and get the answers to your questions in due coarse. I have the States meetings tomorrow and possibly Thursday.





Dave Jones

Don't be naive, Dave Jones. Our current accounts are easily interrogated, they have to be opened with documentation that clearly defines the beneficial owner. It is the structures that are created to hide this information from interrogation that are morally dubious. What you despise is the theory that a democratically elected government should try and make a country better through tax contribution. Your crass example of going to war shows your principle up like a christmas tree. These were right wing fundamentalists using secrecy, friends in high places and undemocratic processes to forward their own aims. Nothing to do with the democratic pronciple.

Why is the council tax infamous? How else is devolution to the local authorities going to fund itself? You're dead against centralism, clearly, but who pays for the lights and bins and whathaveyou? The reason the costs are soaring is because of a privatisation of core services. Contractors can charge what they like, employ who they like and do bugger all when they like with little or no accountability. Something else no doubt that UKIP espouses.

Taxes pay for civilisation, Dave Jones, that is why we pay them. There is no point paying an arbitary amount and watching schools fall down, people not able to afford housing, a private health care system that will eventually be out of reach of the ordinary person, just to give those with money the choice not to pay tax in their homeland. It is a perverse point of view.

The envy, no doubt, is with your hard right colleagues. I can't imagine you striking up much of a dialogue with those that think your views exist in an elitist minority wishing harm on the poor majority.


Last edited by Fast Robert on Tue 24 Feb 2009, 1:39 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : quotes)
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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Dave Jones on Thu 26 Feb 2009, 7:50 pm

F.R



We have a regulatory structure that sees that banks behave honestly, if you are saying that it is morally wrong that client’s financial details are kept confidential, then that is clearly a matter of opinion. If I despise anything, it is the idea that one country with a democratic parliament thinks it has the right to dictate to another country who has its own democratic parliament what it should charge in taxes and attempt to force their high tax principles on the rest of us. Or that we should attempt to collect taxes on behalf of another jurisdiction from people doing legitimate business outside their shores. You allowed your government to go to war on a lie, what have you as a country done about it? well I will tell you…..nothing. So where was the power of the democratic system you defend, it should have ridden the UK of this sorry Labour government years ago. The council tax is infamous because of the number of elderly people who have gone to jail for failing to pay it, mostly to profligate councils who preside over huge budgets that fail time and time again to deliver proper services to their people. As for UKIP, they want trade with the EU not government by the EU. The people of Guernsey pay their taxes and they have excellent services, they are not over taxed in my view, and if the UK and other countries allowed their people to keep more of what they earn and their wealth they would find their economies flourishing as ours have, also if you stopped your government from paying one and half million pounds every hour 24 hours a day to the European Union then you would have billions to spend every year on schools, hospitals and many other services.

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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Chok Dee Ja on Tue 03 Mar 2009, 2:19 pm

any news on the pension fund mr d jones ?


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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Fast Robert on Tue 03 Mar 2009, 3:33 pm

Dave Jones

The idea is not to impose 'high tax' or indeed dictate any other jurisdictions tax structures. It is to provide a level playing field for international tax laws. It doesn't apply just to Guernsey (I'm local btw), but to everywhere onshore and offshore. The system is skewed to benefit the rich and the multinats. Of taht there is absolutely no doubt. By defending this stance we are effectively defending capital distortions in other countries and condemning THEIR taxpayers to reduced public services. This becomes particularly noticable in former colony countries (of all the colonisors, nit just the UK) where governments, propped up by vested interest corps and foreign office affairs, 'encourage' tax avoidance (and evasion) in order to garner preferential rights to resources and cheap labour.

The TIEA arrangements we have signed (the UK one is not even ratified until 2011 at earliest) require such a level of detail already held by the investigator that it renders them nearly useless. It's a start, but it has been greatly spun by the various parties involved.

It is simply not good enough to say that we are honest, we need to prove it. Using the regulators as beacons is absurd considering the worldwide failure seen recently. The banks aren't going to be proactive because they are defending whatever cash they have under management (a lot of the instruments make their compliance extremely difficult to assertain the exact beneficiaries of these funds), so therefore it lies with the governments of the 'havens' under attack, to open up and force the regulators to pick apart the barrel to find the few rotten apples and declare our interests in conforming with basic human decency.

Do not mistake New Labour for a socialist movement. There has been no other government that have destroyed the notion of social democracy over the last twenty years.

The rich are getting richer and the poor, poorer, Dave Jones. In Guernsey. As a senior politician, are you proud of that, considering a lot of your rhetoric is to defend the 'local'. It would seem you would prefer the non local rich and the fair weathered friends in the finance industry.
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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Dave Jones on Tue 03 Mar 2009, 7:36 pm

If there was a level playing field as far as uniform tax rates go there would be no tax competition at all and profligate governments would be able to hold all the citizens as fiscal hostages squeezing them for more and more and delivering less and less? If there were no rich entrepreneurs or multi nationals where would the thousands of jobs come from? Or the private investment? As for condemning their taxpayers to reduced local services don’t make me laugh I will give you a couple of examples 11 years ago the present labour government decided to massively increase funding on education, well at least that was the grand announcement at the time, the reality was that taxes were increased and for 11 years everyone has been paying more on the understanding that it was to improve their children’s education, well has it? Not a bit of it, thousands of children are leaving UK schools unfit educationally for the modern world, a senior schools inspector said a short while ago that the UK education system was in crisis and desperately needed more money. Where did 11 years of increased taxes for education go? I will tell you, on useless government quangos and MP’s expenses and pensions and a whole other mountain of waste within central government. The other example was when the labour government made another big announcement a few years ago that they wanted to raise National insurance contributions and pour the extra money into the NHS, again where has all those billions of extra contributions gone? The NHS is in melt down suffering a slow lingering death by a thousand cuts while the government kept the money for whatever reason but it certainly wasn’t poured into the health service as the people were promised. As for your point on cheap labour I am sorry but you lost me on that point. I support the TIEA’s and I think we have proved time and time again that we are honest and transparent and as we are scrutinised from across the globe by the OECD, The IMF the European Union and the US treasury we have shown them all we have nothing to fear and nothing to hide, unlike many of the banks and businesses in their own jurisdictions, in the US for instance I have lost count of the number company directors, bankers and accountants who have gone to jail for fraud and corruption and when this global meltdown is over I suspect their will be many more. We have not exported financial uncertainty to the rest of the world, they have exported it to us.[/size]
[size=12]I see nothing wrong whatsoever in the right of people to be allowed to enjoy banking confidentiality as a right. Governments have no more right to know your personal financial details than they do in knowing any other personal details about your life and family, I thought that’s what millions of people died for 60 odd years ago to protect our rights of freedom and privacy. Finally as a senior politician if that’s how I am to be described, it is my job to protect the jobs and incomes of the people of Guernsey and I make no apologies for defending that position, the finance sector gives employment to over 8,000 people in this island, the vast majority of them local people and they work in an industry that carries out legal and legitimate business, as a result they pay their mortgages and rents ,feed and cloth their families and pour millions into the economy of this island as a result, much of the wealth that comes into the treasury goes to pay for some of the finest public services anywhere. I will support that position as long as the people want me.

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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Chok Dee Ja on Thu 05 Mar 2009, 9:10 am

Dave you still have not confirmed the current value of the states pension fund ?

Can you give a indication when you will be in a position to do so ?

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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Fast Robert on Thu 05 Mar 2009, 1:41 pm

Dave Jones

Whilst I agree that 'government by quango' has seemed to be a waste, I can't agree with your assessment that atxpayers money is largely wasted. New Labour inherited devastated public services, done out of pure spite by 19 years of callous tory rule. There was never going to be enough money to fix the problems of the NHS and education. They set themselves up for a fall by announcing unreasonable targets.

That said, to say the UKs schools are failing is absurd. There are more children staying longer and achieving better grades than ever before. Guernsey's record, per capita, is worse. For the amount of cash swilling about here we still manage to run schools into the ground and produce illiterate adults. It really is astonishing how in the past some people are stuck in. The system needs a complete overhaul. The creeping privatisation in the UKs NHS has speeded up a rot of bad management and staff wastage, it is not the concept that is at fault, but the implementation of resources.

You are not wrong to say that we 'don't export' financial woe onto the world, although there are some financial instruments that could only have been born in offshore jurisdictions, and judging by the continuing marketing of our system being the envy of all, then it is fair for me to assume that some of them were derived here.

WW2? Freedom and rights? It was more to do with power and resources. Fascism was widely accepted in the UK as a way to do things. The Daily Mail was open in its calls for anti semitism. The UK monarchy had deep rooted links with fascist aristocracy. In fact one of the guiding principles in National Socialism is protectionist policies and a wide distrust of other forms of organisational powers. Do you see where I'm going here...

As for public services...
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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Chok Dee Ja on Fri 06 Mar 2009, 3:06 pm

Still no news on the current pension fund values Dave ?

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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Dave Jones on Fri 06 Mar 2009, 3:26 pm

It is currently around 650 million, it has dropped about 250 million in 3 years and when the stock markets rise again as they surly will, it will start to climb again. We are in a global recession at it will not last forever.

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Re: Richard Murphys Outlook For Guernsey

Post by Chok Dee Ja on Fri 06 Mar 2009, 3:31 pm

Dave Jones wrote:It is currently around 650 million, it has dropped about 250 million in 3 years and when the stock markets rise again as they surly will, it will start to climb again. We are in a global recession at it will not last forever.

Around 650 Million ? 550 ? Are you sure those are the latest official figures as that seems very similar to the october figure and i find it very hard to believe that the fund isnt lower in the current climate?

We are in a banking scandal problem never seen ever before i dont see how you can be so flippant with your future prediction?

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