PARTY – OR PERISH.

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Pete Burtenshaw on Wed 20 Aug 2008, 8:05 pm

Stuart, you know your stuff.....good on you...and Pegasus, I like your post.........

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Pete Burtenshaw on Wed 20 Aug 2008, 8:25 pm

Subject: 5 SURGEONS.......!

Five surgeons from big cities are discussing who makes the best patients to operate on.

The first surgeon, from New York , says, 'I like to see accountants on my operating table because when you open them up, everything inside is numbered.'

The second, from Chicago , responds, 'Yeah, but you should try electricians! Everything inside them is color coded.'

The third surgeon, from Dallas , says, 'No, I really think librarians are the best, everything inside them is in alphabetical order'

The fourth surgeon, from Los Angeles , chimes in: 'You know, I like construction workers...Those guys always understand when you have a few parts left over.'

But the fifth surgeon, from Washington , DC , shut them all up when he observed: 'You're all wrong. Politicians are the easiest to operate on. There's no guts, no heart, no balls, no brains and no spine, and the head and the ass are interchangeable.

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Stuart Syvret on Wed 20 Aug 2008, 8:48 pm

Pegasus

I think you’ll find we have Mason political parties already.

Whilst I think some are a little too paranoid about groups like the Masons, the simple fact is that a variety of covert allegiances – de facto parties – exist already; fractious, to be sure – but they condense and act as one when the status quo requires it.

This is why I say we have the worst of both worlds – party politics via connivance, stealth, secrecy and dishonesty.

We’d be far better off just forcing it all out into the open.

Stuart.

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by GD on Thu 21 Aug 2008, 7:42 am

Good Radio Interview this morning on BBC Radio, Stuart.

I am sure that you will have "Stirred" a few things up...

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Stuart Syvret on Thu 21 Aug 2008, 8:14 am

Thanks

Got the plug in for Vue des Isles.

I hope the interview made sense; it’s always difficult to present new and challenging views in the space of a few sound-bites.

Let’s hope there’s plenty more debate on this site.

I’d appreciate if anyone in Guernsey could post any responses, follow-ups etc from other sites or the GEP.

Stuart

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Pegasus on Thu 21 Aug 2008, 11:21 am

Stuart

I hear what you are saying but in reality can you ever see party politics coming to the Islands?

Plus lets face it trying to get together simple things like elections at the same time ie constables is practically impossible so how do you propose that Party Politics will ever come about?

And if Party politics came about would there not be a risk of "Big money" support behind such parties

And is you veiw of the CLOTHIER report

The submission to the Clothier Committee makes a number of recommendations. These include:


  • Regular general elections.
  • Need to separate the powers of the executive, the legislature and the judiciary.
  • A President or Prime Minister for Jersey.
  • The need for some members of the Jersey States to act as the Opposition.
  • Freedom of Information.
  • Defined Ministers and government departments.
  • Strengthening pressure group activity.
  • Forbidding big business to finance political parties or election candidates.
  • No role for the Bailiff.
  • No role for the Lieutenant Governor.
  • Jersey States to elect its own Speaker.
  • No judicial role for the Speaker.
  • No political role for the Dean of Jersey.
  • Written record of all proceedings of the States, freely available to the public.
  • Full-time politicians.
  • Making a distinction between local and national government.
  • Break-up the monopoly of the Jersey Evening Post.
  • Independence of the civil service.
  • A House of Commons (UK) Select Committee to oversee Jersey (and other Crown Dependencies).
  • Broader role for the Audit Commission.
  • Properly defined rights and laws rather than unenforceable Codes of Practice.
  • The creation of a university and 'independent' think-tanks to provide alternative analysis and information.

Will any of it ever happen or is it going to be brushed away?
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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Stuart Syvret on Thu 21 Aug 2008, 11:45 am

Pegasus

Two of the points you raise can be explained by the same answer.

You ask ‘danger of big money backing parties?’

And you ask ‘Clothier – it will it all happen?

The answer to both of these points is – stop looking to the UK for examples.

By the standards of modern, respectable European democracies the UK is a complete mess, obsolete, corrupted, as you say, by big money, public disenchantment, falling voter turn-outs and no proportional representation.

How the hell can a democracy be regarded as functional – when you have a system in which a party can gain 35% of the vote – and 100% of the power?

When 65% of the voters may have utterly despised the party which “won”?

So do the dangers you point to exist? Yes – very much so in the UK. However, most of the respectable, democratic world has such things as proportional representation, very strict and transparent party & campaign funding laws etc, etc.

Whilst I don’t imagine there is a perfect example – most western, established democracies have got very close to eliminating the problems you describe – by way of contrast to the UK.

Which is why I never supported Clothier. It is, essentially, a half-baked extrapolation from the UK Local Government Act 2000. Why on earth should we copy as an example, a local administrative system from a country which – amongst the democracies – is probably the most backwards and obsolete in democratic terms?

Oh sure, there are some good parts to Clothier, just to take one example, a separation of powers. But, frankly, those parts of the report which a good – are really nothing more than statements of the bleeding obvious.

But the deficiencies of the document far outweighed any usefulness in its recommendations.

Stuart.

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by GD on Thu 21 Aug 2008, 7:31 pm

Deputy Dave Jones has hit back at a Jersey politicians claim that the Islands need party politics

Senator Stuart Syvret has called for a new way of Govening the Islands Blogging at vuedesisles.com, he said it was a myth that the Islands have been "well governed in the absence of party politics"

"In truth, they've simply been used as pieces of money-making apparatus by our respective ruling elites." Senator Syvret went on to describe Island politicians as having "as much competnce as a blind alcoholic on crack at the controls of an !330 Airbus."

Deputy Jones said Senator Syvret had claimed party politics would make the States more accountable, but pointed out that UK votrs had been let down many times.

"The Labour government is in power by a handful of votes," said Deputy Jones. "People did not even get to vote for their prime minister.

"He was just so wrong about party politics, It is inherently dishonest. In the Islands we are accountable individually - there is no comparison.

" I think those are the utterings of a man who hasn't managed to mak the system work for him."

Senator Syvret claimed Jersey and Guernsey people had been conned into believing party politics was bad.

It was unrealistic, he said, to believe that an assembly of random people would not form pacts and promote or slander each other.

Deputy Syvret believed that if the Islands opted for Party politics, people could vote knowing exactly what they would be getting. Should the party not honour its promises, it could be voted out at the next election. (taken from the Guernsey Press)


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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by GD on Thu 21 Aug 2008, 8:14 pm

For those who misssed Stuart BBC Radio interview

Go 10 Minutes in and wait for about a minute and a half.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/guernsey/aod.shtml?guernsey/morning_report_thu#


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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Stuart Syvret on Thu 21 Aug 2008, 9:51 pm

Oh Dear! Poor old Dave.

So, like the vast majority of Channel Island politicians – he’s wedded to the system – clearly a man who has obviously “made the system work for him” - unlike, as he would have it, me.

I think the comments of Dave, who’ve I’ve met on several occasions, are yet more evidence for my case. Look, Dave – we’re not supposed to be making “the system work” for ourselves. We need to find a system that “works” for these communities.

I argued that most C.I politicians would struggle to hit parish councillor level; I think his comments prove it.

True enough – I haven’t “made the system work for me” – but nor have I ever attempted to “make it work for me”. What I have been interested in is trying to make our customary approach to politics “work” for my constituents.

And the plain fact is – it doesn’t.

Hopefully Dave will submit a detailed post of his own, so we can have a constructive debate about these matters.

He, for sure, needs to come up with some kind of cogent argument better that this:

“Deputy Jones said Senator Syvret had claimed party politics would make the States more accountable, but pointed out that UK voters had been let down many times.

"The Labour government is in power by a handful of votes," said Deputy Jones. "People did not even get to vote for their prime minister.

"He was just so wrong about party politics, it is inherently dishonest. In the Islands we are accountable individually - there is no comparison.”

If anyone cares to look at the comment I submitted at 11.45, you will see that I make no bones about the failures of party politics – it is in many ways a deficient system.

But it is the lesser of two evils.

For sure UK voters have been let down many times. But is he seriously attempting to suggest that Channel Island voters – by way of contrast – haven’t?!?

Come off it.

As I pointed out in my comment this morning – if one looks to the UK as an example, you’re making a big mistake. Democracy in the UK is stagnant and dysfunctional. And as to Dave’s point about the Labour Party being in by a handful of votes – I agree with him, completely. Which is why I advocated in my comments a European model of democracy – one which functions with proportional representation.

But in a nutshell, Dave’s arguments fall on their face for a clear and inescapable reason.

Every criticism he, and those who share his views, make of party politics – applies also to so-called “independent” politics – only more so.

Politics, as a profession, attracts shysters. Generally, people will always be let down by politicians – sooner or later. But what we have to start getting our head around is that that applies to “politicians” as specie – quite regardless of whether they’re “independent” or members of a party.

At least with a party – the guts are out on the table for all to see. For example – in the kind of way which enables Dave to make his reasonably accurate damnation of party dishonesty. When a party is dishonest – as they frequently are – when they fail to deliver on their contract with the electorate – we can see that – and vote accordingly next time around.

With parties – there’s no hiding place.

With soi disant “independents” - 99% of the time they seem to be able to wriggle through without ever being regarded as responsible or culpable for the cock-ups.

Parties are the lesser of two evils.

Stuart.

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by GD on Fri 22 Aug 2008, 11:06 am

No party politics without cabinet style Goverment says Deputy Matt Fallaize

Only if Guernsey adopted cabinet-style goverment would there be a possible case for political parties according to Deputy Matt Fallaize.

"I've never been persuaded that we need party politics, mainly because I'm not sure there's enough good politicians in Guernsey," said the poll-topping member of the Education and the House Committee.

"You would almost end up with half the House in constant oppsition and fighting each other like football teams.

"But if we ever went to cabinet goverment, the argument for party politics would be stronger because in Jersey, where you hae a cabinet of ministers, you have effectively everyone else in opposition, I would call it a minority goverment and I think that's why it seems dysfunctional

Deputy Fallaize was speaking after Senator Stuart Syvret called for party politics to be adopted in both islands.

Blogging at vuedesisles.com, the Senator said a number of cover allegiances already existed and it would be better for people if the islands opted for party politics
because they would know exactly what they are getting

"This is why I have say we have the worst of both worlds - party politics via connivance, stealth, secrecy and dishonesty" he said,

"We'd be far better off just forcing it all out into thew open"

Deputy Fallaize accepted there might already be a split in the House and that was similar to having parties.

"As Senator Syvret said, there are alliances that exsist in Guernsey politics in the same way. I'm sure this has always been the case but it's probally more evident than it has been"

"My experience so far is that you have a third that normally always stick together on the other side, and a third who stick together on the other side, which means issues are decided by the other third, who are in the middle" (from Guernsey Press 22nd August)


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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by GD on Fri 22 Aug 2008, 11:17 am

BBC Radio interveiw on Party Politics today you will need to go into about 1hr 10 mins to hear it

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/guernsey/aod.shtml?guernsey/morning_report_fri#


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A parallel?

Post by st_ouennais on Sat 23 Aug 2008, 9:37 am

It occurred to me this morning that my dislike of political parties is somewhat parallel to my dislike of organised religion. Spirituality and religeous belief are fine. Its the bureaucracy, and priestly hierarchy that seems to be the problem. Is there a party political model equivalent to the Friends (Quakers) - that would do me.

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PARTY OR PERISH

Post by blondie on Sat 23 Aug 2008, 10:57 am

HI Stuart where do I sign up anything would be better than what we have now.People I speak to are disgusted with what is happening on our Island.I am a working mum doing three jobs to make ends meet.

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by David Rotherham on Sun 24 Aug 2008, 9:55 am

There will always be insoluble paradoxes in societies and systems. Our lives have progressed much further from those of scattered hunter-gatherers than our natures have. We all still want the freedom to do our own things with the security of others around us in a well-organised set-up. However, the size of the population, and the sophistication and complexity of civilized and industrialized living require more organizing than anyone feels comfortable with living under, and would take even more organizing than we are humanly capable of to get right.
Which is not intended as an excuse not to seek to maximize both the quantity of freedom and quality of organization that we can achieve. To that end, teams of politicians pledging to work together in pursuit of stated and realistic objectives, i.e. parties, have to be a lot more effective than lone individuals with wish-lists asking for your vote because their pals at the lodge reckon they are good lads.

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Lieve Hodgetts on Sun 24 Aug 2008, 3:48 pm

I agree that there are, indeed, quite a few dangers in party politics.

1. At the end of the day, we need representatives that are articulate enough themselves to put forward their opinions and thoughts, intelligent and willing enough to listen to what others have to say, weigh off the pros and cons of all arguments put forward (both for and against) and amalgamate the pros into a well thought-through policy or decision. (That is what debate is about, isn't it ? That is how you form strong opinions and policies, pallatable to the majority.) Often, though, in party politics, elected politicians become parrots or puppets of their party, and debate WITHIN the party disappears as well.

2. In my native Belgium, you can only vote within your first party of choice. You cannot vote "cross-party". I would not like Jersey to get into a situation where I could not vote both for a Time4Change or JDA member, or an "independent" candidate like Stuart or Roy or any others, if I so wished to do. On top of that, in Belgium, if you vote for candidate number 25 on say, the Liberal Democrat party, that vote in favour of that individual candidate would get lost ; if that very party won 10 seats in parliament, only the candidates No. 1 through 10 would get their seat, even if you actually think they are not viable candidates.

BUT ... I agree completely with Stuart that the idea of "independent" is useless as well. "Independent" to me echoes "I do my own thing" and "I am all on my own". We, therefore, end up with 53 parties (or egoes) and it sort of defeats the object, doesn't it. (Unfortunately, the ballot papers do not allow any other way ; either you are a party member or you are independent. But let's face it, many of those labelled 'independent' on the ballot paper are not really independent, are they?)

The advantage of party politics is that the "party" can hold candidates accountable. And if candidates move away from the core issues of the party's policies (undoubtedly, everyone is entitled to personal touches ; everyone is allowed to sing his own arrangement, but within a party you keep singing off the same hymn sheet), a party can point out the discrepancies between the party's and that individual's policies (because let's face it, it sometimes gets very difficult and overwhelming to see the (dead) wood for the trees for people that do not keep up politically on a day-to-day basis). It is then up to a party to point out to people : "Look, candidate so-and-so no longer goes by the core aims and objectives of our party ; if you vote for them, you no longer vote for our party, and vice versa." There would be a lot more openness and transparency (though don't be fooled into thinking it would be perfect!) ; we would no longer reside in the realm of fantasy that Jersey does not have party operations ... This is exactly what the Establishment does very well, though they refuse to call it party politics.

Unfortunately, the electorate NEVER gets guarantees that a politician will not make a U-turn once they are elected in. A party (or pressure group endorsing a candidate) CAN (if they play it right), at least, try to limit the possibilities. A party (or pressure group endorsing a candidate) can demand to put some checks and balances in place to avoid a candidate's U-turns. Evryone will appreciate, though, that this is not an easy feat. If a U-turn IS made, then, at least the candidate will end up with egg on their, and not so much the party and the people that did the leg work to support the 'defective' candidate.

Here in Jersey it is not going to be easy, though ; personally I am appalled at the reluctance of virtually all to be "seen" or appear to be linked to another. I feel we have quite a lot of like-minded people, both in the States and beyond.

But boy, many find it so difficult to publicly agree with Stuart because he is Stuart; many wouldn't dream of supporting Geoff Southern because he is JDA, even though deep down they actually support some of his propositions. Already many badmouth Time4Change, or really do not want to show the slightest sympathy in public, simply because it may "damage their reputation (or ego)". As long as we can't get over that, it will be very hard to get together and join hands and make a front against those whose policies are blatantly opposite. Many have said it before, the Establishment must be having a ball if we can't get over that !

Personally, I find it very easy to publicly show my respect and support for members or candidates that are NOT Time4Change members, even if I do not always agree with them 100%. That is the beauty of party politics, as oppossed to personality driven government. You can dislike a person whilst agreeing with their policies or vice versa. At the moment, all we have is the opportunity to like the candidate or not, being unsure of what they stand for. What basis is that for rational choice when voting?

For all your information, Time4Change for the time being will NOT be a party, but will be - as, I am sure, you may have read between the lines - a pressure group endorsing certain candidates. And we are looking for ways to ensure that candidates do not "betray" our aims and objectives. If someone does get elected (you can only but hope) because people like Time4Change's aims and objectives (and please, don't discard them just yet as pointless and rhetorical; we haven't even publicized them yet), we will try as much as possible to make sure that this candidate will stick by them, or "name and shame" him/her.

The prevalent condition to get good debate, is for people to at least be willing to talk and listen to each other's arguments. Especially when you notice that you are basically on the same wavelength anyway.

Sorry for the long post ! I guess I got influenced by the master ! :-)

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Lieve Hodgetts on Sun 24 Aug 2008, 3:49 pm

Hear hear, David R. ! Very well said !

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Pegasus on Sun 24 Aug 2008, 10:47 pm

Well Mr Syvret you have gone very quite

Prehaps you have decided that you cannot finish what you started?
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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Stuart Syvret on Mon 25 Aug 2008, 11:29 am

Pegasus

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do, actually, have rather a large work-load - which has to take priority over web site debates.

I certainly plan to produce a detailed response to this debate at some point, but I was rather hoping for some substantive contribution from at least one or two of those 99% of Channel Island politicians who rabidly oppose the concept of party politics.

If anyone’s “gone very quite” I think it’s them.

Stuart.

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by GD on Mon 25 Aug 2008, 3:52 pm

An expert in island politics says it would not be easy for Guernsey to adopt a party system of government.

Prof Adrian Lee says issues need to divide the States to such an extent that clear parties are created.

It follows calls from a Jersey politician for the Channel Islands to abandon their current structure of independent parliamentarians.

Jersey Senator Stuart Syvret says a party system would make politics more transparent and democratic.

Prof Lee, who specialises in studying the governments of small jurisdictions such as Guernsey, says that type of arrangement does not evolve overnight.(from BBC News)


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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Stuart Syvret on Mon 25 Aug 2008, 4:26 pm

Perhaps the administrators of this site could establish an on-line debate between me and Adrian Lee?

For sure as hell BBC Jersey won’t do it.

I would very much welcome an opportunity to debate these issues with him.

I have wanted to do so frequently on past occasions – but he always runs a country mile from any debate with me.

He turns up churning out his frequently wrong, ignorant and shallow clichés on BBC Jersey about once every three months; BBC Jersey staffers having zero imagination whatsoever – “Ooh! It’s a question about Channel Island politics – let’s get Professor Lee in!”

On several occasion in recent years I have asked BBC Jersey if they would get him on a programme with me – just so he would, for once, actually be in debate with someone who disagreed with him.

Instead – in customary BBC Jersey fashion – any pro-establishment voice gets protected from real challenge. Instead the only person he ever appears with in any discussion format is his friend Deputy Roy Le Herissier – who can safely be relied upon to agree with 98% of what Professor Lee says.

Like I said – contact Professor Lee – invite him to take part in an on-line debate – so for once his shallow and platitudinous observations can be challenged.

Oh, and whilst your at it – you might want to suggest to Denzil – the dud – Dudley that he and the rest of BBC Jersey – the only BBC outpost on the face of the planet to have ‘gone native’ – might actually get around to reading the BBC Charter and the current broadcasting legislation – which they breach about three times-a-week on average.

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by GD on Tue 26 Aug 2008, 2:17 pm

'Jersey power rests behind closed doors' says Minster Dave Jones


Jersey's political system 'is a little more than an elected dictatorship' according to a member of Guernsey's Policy Council

Housing minister Dave Jones condemned Jersey's fledgling executive goverment system as a failure

'Jersey went for a form of executive goverment that clearly is not working, nor does it have a general election in the true sense of the word. It has a series of elections for officials,deputies ans senators

'Guernsey has a system which gives the people goverment from the bottom up, not the top down, and the real control overpolicy remains firmly on the floor of the assembly, not, as in Jersey, behind closed doors by a handful of ministers

'To be blunt the Jersey system is a little more tha an elected dictatorship,'

Deputy Jones made his comments in response to statements by a Jersey Senator, Stuart Syvret, urging Guernsey voters to embrace a party political system akin to the UK

People would then know for what they were voting.clained the senator.

'I have seldom heard of a bigger distortion of the truth,' said Deputy Jones, an outspoken critic of the UK goverment.

The British people did note vote to go to war in Iraq, nor did they expect to be cheated out of a promosed referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

'They didn't even get a say in who is their present prime minister.

So the idea that democracy is better served by a party system is inherrent nonsense',

'The whole system is flawed,'

'Because of the first past the post system, a political party can find itself in power with a small percentage of public support',

Deputy Jones said he would not normally comment on Jersey politics, but felt able to do so to balance Senator Syvret's views

Deputy Jones said party politics could not be imposed on a community. He said it could only grow from within and islanders would decide whether they wanted it or not.

'It was tried in Jersey and the people of Jersey showed overwhelming that they wanted no part of it.

'I don't think we need to take any lessons from Jersey on this matter'

He added that Senator's Syvret's commments that neither island was equipped to handle a crisis were also absurd.

'The islands governments managed even being occupied by an invading army, which is something the UK has not had to do,certainly for many hundreds of years.

'Yes we need a sewage plant and a waste management system and both of those will be put into place in due course, but to suggest that we have to change the whole way the islands are governed because we take longer than other jusrisdictions is, quite frankly, barking,' (from Guernsey Press)


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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Stuart Syvret on Tue 26 Aug 2008, 5:58 pm

I’m afraid Dave’s remarks remain a load of cobblers.

Interestingly, his remarks were quoted fully in today’s edition of The Rag (the Jersey Evening Post for the uninitiated. God, I felt sorry for Guernsey when its only newspaper was brought by the Guiton Group.).

Naturally, they didn’t approach me for any comment, but at least the GEP has, so maybe there’ll be some form of response in it tomorrow.

This is actually a very interesting and important debate. I’m glad it appears to have sparked the interest it has.

I will do a fuller reply to the comments when time permits. In the mean time – are there any Guernsey – or Jersey – politicians out there who are reading this? Most of you must disagree with my views on party politics?

So, come on – join the debate.

Stuart.

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by MarkyD on Tue 26 Aug 2008, 6:48 pm

Interestingly enough Stuart it is prompting quite a bit of interest, however I wonder if the interest is only limited to exchanges of insults and claims of absurdness across the pond rather than genuinely in the subject itself?

Your closing comments directed at politicians from either islands disagreeing with your views makes me consider whether the nature of this subject is more aimed at drawing people in to sour relationships rather than offer meaningful debate.

Hopefully I have completely misinterpreted this paragraph whilst considering such a cynical view!
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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Stuart Syvret on Tue 26 Aug 2008, 10:09 pm

MarkyD

Politicians argue.

I realise it’s a strange and alien concept in the Channel Islands – but, yes, politicians disagree and have debates.

I fear you’re displaying a text-book sublimation of Channel Island politics – that somehow one must be “polite” at all costs – “politeness” – over and above the truth; that is the cultural cringe of the politics of these islands.

In just how many other functioning, respectable democracies would a politician issuing an invitation to debate to other politicians elicit as a prime re-action that it was being “sour”?

For God’s sake – grow up.

Robust debate is the life-blood of democracy; it’s what our forefathers fought and died for.

Give me engagement with the truth – over “politeness” every time.

Stuart.

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by MarkyD on Wed 27 Aug 2008, 8:27 am

There's no need to get upset Stuart. I was merely posting whilst under the impression that you were inviting comment on this subject. After all, isn't the purpose of a debate to listen to the views of others and then counter if necessary with reasoned responses - not simply throw toys out of the pram!

I have simply thrown another view into the debate, that's all. The fact that it conflicts with your own should not detract from the possibility of it being a valid point should it?

Thankyou for the revelation regarding politics, I am fully aware of the existence of debate and arguments within politics - just as I am equally aware of hidden agendas within politics too.

I have no axe to grind with you, I admire the stance you took regarding Haut de la Garenne, and await with interest any further developments.

On a personal note, and as a member of the voting public you seek to convince (albeit in the 'other' island), I just believe that you have not yet put forward a convincing argument that we do really need party politics in the islands worthy of my change of view, nothing more, nothing less.

I am happy for those politicians or aspiring politicians who obviously know far more than me to continue to fight for what they believe in and I will offer support to them where I feel strongly towards a particular subject.

Perhaps it is time for me to step back from posting my opinions about the 'grown up' world of politics.
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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Pegasus on Tue 02 Sep 2008, 8:50 pm

Stuart Syvret wrote:Pegasus

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do, actually, have rather a large work-load - which has to take priority over web site debates.

I certainly plan to produce a detailed response to this debate at some point, but I was rather hoping for some substantive contribution from at least one or two of those 99% of Channel Island politicians who rabidly oppose the concept of party politics.

If anyone’s “gone very quite” I think it’s them.

Stuart.

The thing is Stuart you say that you have a large workload, which takes priority over the web site debates.

You say you plan a detailed response at some point.

But by this comment you seem only interested in debating with other politicians.

I do understand that you may be busy,

But lets face it you are seen to be posting on other Jersey Websites, which I suppose are very political, even though you seem to be the only politician on there, but its more "Your" style

But I do not understand why you post this type of "Blogg" on here, and fail to respond fully to the posts

It's a shame, but there again you probably have nothing to gain by replying to basic "Joe Public"
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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by Stuart Syvret on Thu 04 Sep 2008, 2:35 pm

Pegasus

Sorry – but I am really – really – busy. I participate in a number of forums, precisely because I do believe it is important for politicians to engage with the public.

However, the very fact I do participate in forums means that my time is stretched very thinly. And if I predominantly engage on this site – it get criticism from others for not responding. It’s a no-win situation.

Personally, I think it’s great that people are prepared to participate in these debates; I certainly wasn’t suggesting that I’d prefer such exchanges to be dominated by politicians. I think that would, in many ways, overwhelm a key feature of citizen media.

But – I have long grown very, very tried of Channel Island politicians – who are convinced of the traditional “superiority” of island politics over normal democracy – but who won’t engage in debate.

With 95% of Channel Island politicians, it’s like trying to get into a rational debate concerning the existence or otherwise of God. Their belief is an article of faith - which they will implacably cling to in the face of all and any rational, factual discussion.

Indeed, most of them - fearing they cannot win the argument – simply avoid it by not participating.

Take Dave, for example; a few sound-bites to the GEP – and that’s it.

Where is he?

Why isn’t he participating in this debate on this site – given he apparently feels so strongly that not providing the voting public with an ability to select a government of their choice is, somehow, a good thing?

And if not him – then what of the other C.I politicians?

You can be absolutely certain that, if asked, 95% of them would oppose party politics.

They support the soi disant “independent” approach to candidature.

Then, if they have a convincing, rational case against my take on the need for party politics – why aren’t they deploying it on this forum?

There must be a few amongst that large number of politicians, who could put their case?

But no. All we get is the proverbial deafening silence.

So we’re forced to conclude that – like the adherents to some weird, irrational religious cult – they have no logical argument with which to defend their position.
So, I’m more than happy to debate issues with the public – But I also believe our politicians need some goading – as they should be engaging with the people they represent.

I will do a detailed response to this thread at some point – maybe this weekend.

But so much work – so little time.

Stuart.

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by David Rotherham on Sat 06 Sep 2008, 4:41 am

I am sorry to see that Vue des Iles has joined the anti-JDA group on Facebook. Why do you begrudge Jersey better government?

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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

Post by MarkyD on Sat 06 Sep 2008, 9:07 am

I haven't personally seen the group on Facebook you refer to David, so I can't answer your question directly, however I would assume that perhaps individuals who join a group named as such do not agree with your view that it will give Jersey a better government.

After all everyone has different views on various topics.
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Re: PARTY – OR PERISH.

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